Monday, March 9, 2015

Lord of the Flies Chapter 5 and 6 Socratic

Today, we are going to do a silent discussion over Chapters 5 and 6.  Everyone must answer the following questions I have asked and once you are done, you must respond to at least 3-4 (or more) other people. When you are done making comments, you must always end with a question-interpretive or critical. I expect textual support (specific quotes from text) to back up your claims.  You will need to read people's questions and comments, but I would like to see depth with discussion threads and for you to be original in your thought and not just restate what someone else already mentioned.

Please do this part first, on your own, as you will get an individual grade for how you answer these questions: You can answer all these questions within one Comment box, but label each response with the corresponding number.

1. What two quotes (1 from each chapter) do you believe were most poignant in revealing an overall theme (a main message)?  Please give the quote from the chapter and then write your analysis.

2.  How is fear playing a role in these chapters?   You must give one quote, from one of the chapters, to support your claim.

3.  How is power and control shifting within these chapters and what is it creating?  Use a quote to support your response.

4.  Please write one interpretive and one critical question

Now that you are done with this, please begin to read other people's questions and comments and respond.  Make sure you are using as much textual evidence as possible.

65 comments:

  1. 1) Quote: “What I mean is . . . maybe it’s only us.” (pg 89)
    Analysis: Here, Simon reflects something upon the group of boys. He shows the the possibility that they don’t know everything. They always know what they are doing, and therefore can not always make the correct decision. Although many of the group members have laughed and shrugged Simon's thought off of their shoulders, I believe there is more to it. There is no way I can believe there is a ghost or beast on this island. What I believe Simon is deferring to is that the only threat that there could be on this island is “us”, themselves. Fear is created in them so it can also be created by them...
    “However Simon, thought of the beast, there rose his inward sight of a human at once heroic and sick.” (pg 103)
    Analysis: Although it most likely does not resemble any represent standing (existing) people, I believe Simon’s thought of the beast could possibly resemble Ralph. Ralph is the authority figure of the group and would stand for a hero, a leader. But, on the other hand, he has recently been teetering on his position. One of these reasons is because he loses it when it come the fire and smoke. He loses all standpoint on what is happening at the moment and focuses primarily at the fire. That portion represent the sickness. If you take Simon’s thought in a more literal sense, the heroicness could be seen as a person who takes lead in what is needed to be done and the sickness as the true purpose or inner purpose a person strives for; selfishness.
    2) Fear has played a role thusfar in keeping the children of the island working together. As we see in the end of chapter 6, the children cease to listen to Ralph's demands. "The sun was bright and danger had faded with the darkness" (pg 108). This quote shows that without fear, the children feel safe (obviously). With this comfort the children no longer have a reason to listen to Ralph; they no longer need his protection.
    3) Power had previously been in a triangle, with Ralph at the top and the littleuns at the bottom. Currently, even as Ralph establishes more rules, the triangle of order is losing its shape. Ralph does not find a leader being easy and has the stress piling on him, making him want to leave his position ("'Fat lot of good we are,' said Ralph. 'Three blind mice. I'll give up." pg 93). What keeps Ralph in his role is his want for rescue, the need for smoke ("There's no signal showing. They may be a ship out there. Are you all off your rockers?" pg 108).
    4)Int.: Why did Ralph admit he was frightened? (pg 100)
    Crit.: Would we rather we seek a horrible truth or a comforting lie? Why?

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    1. I feel in response to your critical question is that its unfair either way... many people want to be told straight forward and many others are wanted to be comforted with a lie... But how exactly are we supose to know who wants what because even if some say 'Tell me the honest truth' they can't handle the truth.
      Do you really think its the best idea to tell little kids (our age or younger) a truth and reality that they may not be able to handle?

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    2. I would say that different people seek different things. People like Piggy and Ralph wouldn't fool themselves with a comforting lie and would seek the truth even if it is "horrible" where as others, maybe Jack or some of the littluns, would convince themselves that everything is fine when it's not. Seeking a comforting lie gives temporary rest, but long term it negatively affects you.

      Why do people choose to think more short term instead of looking at the big picture?

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    3. I think most people only care about what happens in the moment and trying to survive so they can live longer. Just like Jack. He's very focused on killing a pig and trying to survive on the island compared to Ralph who is looking at the big picture and focusing on getting rescued. It all just depends on the person and their personality.

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    4. I think most people would prefer the truth cause with the truth you can fix the problems that come from it.The only problem with that is some people cant handle the truth. You need the truth because you can deal with all the problems that come from it. When your getting lied to you can't fix the problems that come from it.

      What would the world be like without parents?

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  2. 1. “Who cares what you believe--fatty!” p. 90
    Jack always insults Piggy and as a leader, that's not the right way to act. It only makes matters worse when people start turning on each other. It’s sad that is has come to this and Jack needs to stop because soon it will lead to more. I feel bad for Piggy because he seems to be a very smart guy and offers good thoughts and ideas but nobody listens to him. This is part of an overall theme to treat others the way you want to be treated and also to not abuse power but use it for the right thing.

    “He was surrounded on all sides by chasms of empty air.” p. 105
    As more and more time passes, the boys are starting to feel alone. They are scared and aren't happy with the conditions anymore. They want to go home and chaos is starting to set in. This is another main message that Golding is showing that is dealing with struggle in the right ways. The boys are alone, tired, scared, and hungry and have to deal with it accordingly.

    2. “They lay there listening, at first with doubt but then with terror…” p. 99
    The boys are freaked out now and don’t know what to do. It’s a scary thought to not know what is out there and that's what they are experiencing...the unknown. It's interesting to see how they all deal with this fear in different ways.

    3. "Why should choosing make any difference? Just giving orders that don't make any sense--" p. 91
    The boys are starting to stray from what Ralph says. At the beginning, they were all for whatever came out of his mouth but now, they doubt what he says and don't always follow his lead.

    4. I: Are the boys more civilized or savages?
    C: Does the environment your in and the people your with change who you are?

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    1. In response to your first question i don't think they boys know themselves whiter they are civilized or savages. They grew up to be civilized; they know whats right and whats wrong and what exactly makes someone a savage person. They understand what its like to live in a society but had to change for their situation.
      What forces people to do things that are uncivil?

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    2. I think the boys were more civilized but now i think they have less order so there becoming more and more like savages. I dont think they are old enough to develope a proper establishment. and the kids are pretty much doing what every they want.

      Are the best leaders the ones who don't want to be a leader?

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    3. Leaders who don't want to be leaders may not necessarily be "better" but definitely are in it for different reasons. They seem to have better intentions and don't get caught up in the power and luxuries that come with leading.

      What are the pros and cons of leading and why would people want to or not want you lead??

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    4. Your environment and the people you're with can change your life forever. If everyone was wearing something you would want it just because someone has it. In the book Jack has begun to become someone he's not and a single person could change everyone else around so sooner or later Jack could make everyone else become something they don't want to be

      Can one person influence your whole life choices?

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  3. 1.) “I mean when Jack says you can be frightened because people are frightened anyway that’s all right. But when he says there’s only pigs on this island I expect he’s right but he doesn’t know, not really, not certainly I mean-” Maurice took a breath. “My daddy says there’s things, what d’you call’em that make ink-squids-that are hundreds of yards long and eat whales whole.” He paused again and laughed gaily. “I don’t believe on the beast of course. As Piggy says, life’s scientific, but we don’t know, do we? Not certainly, I mean-” pg 88
    This part of Chapter 5 indicates that even the most mature and advanced society in the world cannot be free or “safe” from a frightening fear. Even if there is or is not to believe there will always be something to drive people forward in a negative or positive way. People rely on what they’re taught, if something was to disrupt that then fear and unbalance happens to that person soon to spread out to others.

    Simon, walking in the front of Ralph, felt a flicker of incredulity- a beast with claws that scratched, that sat on a mountain-top, that left no tracks and yet was not fast enough to catch Samneric. However, Simon thought of the beast, there rose before his inward sight the picture of a human at once heroic and sick. pg 103
    This part of Chapter 6 proves that even the beast is in the people and not the animals. The human figure in front of Simon is heroic and sick. But not the condition kind of sick but the kind of sick people say when it’s an evil inside someone. The beast lies within the children on the island and not the animals. Simon is the connector of these two chapters relating that the beast in the children.

    2.) A thin wail out of the darkness chilled them and set them gabbing for each other. Then the wail rose, remote and unearthly, and turned to an inarticulate gibbering. Percival Wemys Madison, of the Vicarage, Harcourt St. Anthony, lying in the long grass, was living through circumstances in which the incarnation of his address was powerless to help him.
    Fear has taken over the boy Percival, he is lost and hopeless with the thought of being home once again. Golding is showing us that all is lost for the boys and surely will all perish on the island. Fear is a powerful emotion making the body react in so many ways, the fear on the island makes every last boy scared; Percival is one of those boys who just wants to go home but can’t ever. Golding proves that nothing better will come into the book for the boys.

    3.) “I’m scared of him,” said Piggy, “and that’s why I know him. If you’re scared of someone you hate him but you can’t stop thinking about him. You kid yourself he’s all right really, an’ then when you see him again; it’s like asthma an’ you can’t breathe. I tell you what. He hates you too, Ralph-”
    “Me, why me?”
    “I dunno. You got him over the fire; an’ you’re chief an’ he isn’t.”
    “But he’s, Jack Merridew!”
    I been in bed so much I done some thinking. I know about people. I know about me. And him. He can’t hurt you: but if you stand out of the way he’d hurt the next thing. And that’s me.” pg 93
    Piggy proclaims that Ralph has the power over the island, he is the one keeping everyone safe and secure of danger. Piggy is showing Ralph that the control of power is shifting over to Jack’s side; killing, mayhem, corruption, and ill. Piggy is the bond between Jack and Ralph, Ralph now knows that he cannot give up being leader of the island or nothing will go as planned and truly that lives will be lost, including his own.

    4.) What does Piggy and Simon have in common that changes the attitude on the island?
    Can one person convince a whole nation to change their minds about a passion?

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    1. I don't think that just one person can change the minds of millions. It would need a group of many people who have strong evidence and support to change a lot of minds. So like Piggy and Simon, they have a hard time trying to convince the group of children what the smartest choice is and what the island is really like. I think that's why they're so alike.

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    2. I too notice common characteristics in Piggy and Simon. They both seem to be very mature for their age, and have realist minds, yet they are disregarded. And I half agree with Anna, I think one mind can change the attitudes of everyone else because a good attitude is contagious, causing everyone to eventually have that outlook. Like in chapter 5, Maurice makes everyone laugh when they are all sad. It is characteristics like those that will change the attitudes of people. How do you think Simon and Piggy will change the island later in the book?

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    3. I too think that society can never be free of fear. What I can conclude is that when society advances, it gains knowledge and with that knowledge comes the widening of the circle of knowledge. Old things lose their scariness because we learn more about them but, questions are raised with knowledge and with those question come the uknown and ultimatley fear. When you say "Even if there is or is not to believe there will always be something to drive people forward in a negative or positive way," I believe that what drives people is fear. Without fear, people do not have reasons to creat boundries, putting them into dangers of things possibly worse. Without fear, also lose order. When no fear is created in a society, they have no reason to follow the rules. There would be no negitive affects to them.

      What role do you think fear plays in shaping a society?

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    4. I think one person can have an affect on a nation. If you look at dr. King and other civil rights activists they had a huge influence over racial discrimination. With lord of the flies Ralph just has to find a common goal or interest with the boys to get them all to listen.

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    6. Fear plays a big role in society because if you were scared of a person you would do anything and everything that they said; if they said jump you would say how high? People who aren't intimidating or scary tend to not be taken as serious because they seem to be able to please easily so if they told you to jump you could say no but if you fear something it makes you work so much harder.

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    7. In society fear is really important. Too much fear and chaos sets in but with too little fear, people aren't scared to do things they shouldn't do and chaos also sets in. A perfect amount is needed for specific things.

      What creates fear toward certain things?

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  4. 1. What two quotes (1 from each chapter) do you believe were most poignant in revealing an overall theme (a main message)? Please give the quote from the chapter and then write your analysis.

    “What are we? Humans? Or animals? Or savages?” (pg 91; ch. 5) They are coming to a realization that they are no longer well trained england boys that they have definitely changed because of the things they were forced to do in order to survive. They have lost touched of who they are known to be and now are struggling with exactly what other people will call them.
    “Its time some people knew they’ve got to keep quiet and leave deciding things to the rest of us.” (pg 102; ch 6) Why exactly does jack belittle some of the other kids? what makes his words and opinions more valid than the others? How does this affect how the others think of him? In a real life situation why are some peoples opinions/word ‘more important than others’... I believe they're not but for some reasons titles make a difference as if a celebrities opinion went against a homeless mans opinion.

    2. How is fear playing a role in these chapters? You must give one quote, from one of the chapters, to support your claim.

    “The thing is--fear can’t hurt you anymore than a dream.” (pg 82; ch 5) Fear definitely plays a role in all of the chapters. I believe fear is inevitable there is absolutely no way to avoid it, but there might be some ways to control it. Fear is shown amongst the boys in almost every situation because someone is always going to be afraid of something.

    3. How is power and control shifting within these chapters and what is it creating? Use a quote to support your response.

    “‘I ought to give up on being chief. Hear ‘em.’ ‘Oh lord! Oh no’” (pg 93; ch 5) It seems that these last two chapter had more of a problem with leadership; as if order is not established at all anymore. The rules are being bylined and ignored because some peoples egos are much bigger than others.

    4. Please write one interpretive and one critical question.

    Why does Jack hate Piggy so much, is it being he;is insecure or maybe he thinks piggy is better than him, or does he think hes superior to all the others?
    How exactly do temptations influence people to do thing whether there good or bad? How does it ignore free-will and take over the situation?

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    1. I think Jack dislikes Piggy because he's an easy target to pick on and make Jack feel superior. Piggy was bullied off the island before but even now on the island he is bullied and picked on just to make other people feel good about themselves. Temptations are never formally decided if they are good or bad between anyone, its the one who makes the influence happens and the one who experienced the influence passed on. The badness of temptations can over run free-will if its something beyond any one's knowledge of the situation.

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    2. Yes, I totally agree - they are all going to be afraid of something, it's hard not to be at their age and especially because they are alone and reliant on one another, who up until recently have been strangers.

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  5. 1.“Maybe there is a beast… maybe it's only us.” (83) I feel like this is Ralph Simon and Piggy realizing that there becoming uncivilized and that they need to start setting even more rules and if they don't do this they could all die! "there was a sudden bright explosion and corkscrew trail across the sky; then darkness again and stars" (95) I feel like this is when everybody gets distracted and stops focusing on Jack and starts focusing on a beast that doesn't even exist. This stops everybody from being productive!
    2.I think fear is manipulating kids so Jack can make the kids do what he wants and i think Ralph says this “Fear can’t hurt you any more than a dream can.” (82) so Ralph is trying to reel every body back saying you shouldn't get scared by jack he can't hurt you hes harmless. And when has a dream ever hurt somebody. In the beginning the fear was how are we going to get off this island but now the fear for everybody is where is this beast. The fear for Ralph Simon and Piggy is how jack will manipulate everyone into doing what he wants and not what the whole group needs
    3.At first the power was mostly with Ralph with Piggy's ideas. Now every body is following Jack because he's giving the people what they want and not what they need. This is creating diversion between Jack and Ralph but more importantly it's separating The hunters with the littluns and Ralph with Piggy and Simon with a few kids on the side. "Mutinously, the boys fell silent or muttering" (108) this is when they stopped listening to Ralph and there seeming like there listening but there not there waiting for Jack to start talking because he's there leader.
    4.Interpret:What type of leader do these kids want and why does it seem their all following the wrong people? Critical How do you see somebody's real colors?

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    1. The kids want a leader who has a rush or passion driving them forward in the tasks needed in the island. Half of the kids on the island follow Jack, the more mature and older kind. The other half tends to be with Ralph at the younger and freshly grasping new generation. The book interprets the more negative side of the island because of Golding's theory "Man is EVIL"
      I’m scared of him,” said Piggy, “and that’s why I know him. If you’re scared of someone you hate him but you can’t stop thinking about him. You kid yourself he’s all right really, an’ then when you see him again; it’s like asthma an’ you can’t breathe. I tell you what. He hates you too, Ralph-”
      “Me, why me?”
      “I dunno. You got him over the fire; an’ you’re chief an’ he isn’t.”
      “But he’s, Jack Merridew!”
      I been in bed so much I done some thinking. I know about people. I know about me. And him. He can’t hurt you: but if you stand out of the way he’d hurt the next thing. And that’s me.” pg 93
      This quote from the book claims that there is two sides of the leaders on the island. Jack and Ralph. You could also probably see someones real colors by getting to know them, like Piggy. At the beginning of the book Piggy was getting to know Ralph and to see his true colors. Trust and knowledge allows someone to see another real color in someone.

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    3. You had bought up an interesting point. You say that Jack is in a way using fear to munipulate the children into doing what he wants (this is an interesting concept and I would like to see more depth in this). I, however, believe that the idea of fear is being outlawed by Jack and inherited by Ralph. Ralph says " 'Course I'm frightened. Who wouldn't be?" (pg 100). Jack says "Be frightened because you're like that - but there is no beast in the forest," (pg 83). I think Ralph says what he says because he knows that fear, as a common nature in humans, keeps them from savagery. Jack says what he does because he is blind and what he truly sees as a need is basic instinct, or basically savagery. Jack believes that fear should not exist because fear creates limits. What he does not know is that these limits are what keep them alive, well, and functioning (as a group).

      Can one fear oneself or only for oneself's well being?

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  6. 1.
    “What I mean is...maybe it’s only us.”... “We could be sort of...” pg.89
    When Simon is telling the group what he thinks the beastie is, I think he was trying to get was that there is no animal or ghost or anything but that the beastie is them, is the people.

    “Couldn't let you do it on your own.” pg.106
    I think this quote kind of represents the bonding between Ralph and Jack. Jack sounds like he cares about Ralph to a certain extent to join Ralph in going and looking up in the rock cave please instead of leaving him to do it by himself.

    2.
    As we continue to read the book fear is being brought up more and more about things. I think fear is what brings out all the savage qualities in the boys and is causing them to become more and more inhumane. Like on page 100 Jack says “This’ll be a real hunt! Who’ll come?” Ralph moved impatiently. “These spears are made of wood. Dont be silly.” I think this brings out more savage qualities because all he can think about is hunting and killing this beast.

    3. Power and control is shifting in the book by Ralph sorta stepping down and Jack stepping up by not listening to Ralph and his opinions and rules. Like on page 91 “The rules!” shouted Ralph “ Youre breaking the rules!” ”Who cares?” Ralph summoned his wits. “Because the rules are the only thing we've got!” But Jack was shouting against him. “Bollocks to the rules! Were strong- we hunt! If there’s a beast, well hunt it down! Wel close in and beat and beat and beat-” This quote shows that as Ralph is talking and sharing Jack doesn't really care about what Ralph has to say.

    4.
    What role and type of person is Simon so far in the book?

    How long do you think it take for savagery to finally take over?

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    1. I think that Simon is peace, order, and respect. He seems to know things about the island and the children that are really deep. I believe that when the book gets dark, Simon will be one of the first to go because of his tranquility.

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    2. I agree with what Anna says about Simon but I also think he is a peace holder of the children on the island. He is a bonding that keeps the island whole and stable from people like Jack to corrupt it. And for the critical question, I think savagery takes over after hope is lost in you or in others making you have a thrill of adventure or death. I don't think there is an exact pinpointed time but those requirements are at least needed to have savagery take over.

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    3. I too think that Simon is the peacekeeper, and innocent but I think he would make a great leader because of this reason. Ralph's personality is too strong for the boys and I believe it will result in mayhem on the island eventually with his tactics of scaring the boys with the "beast"

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  7. 1)“If only they could get a message to us,” cried Ralph desperately. “If only they could send us something grownup...” This is a great example of how the kids are still scared and how they are still children. It shows how they are at the age where they do need their parents to help give order to the kids’ lives. As I look at this quote, I think it’s a last cry of help from the children in desperation of hopefully being saved. They are scared and it is hard for a young child to be alone on an island without any grownups. “There’s no signal now. Nothing to show.” The fire signal at the top of the mountain is a big part of Ralph’s idea of survival. It was his last ray of hope and now that that’s gone, I think Ralph is going to lose it. He won’t feel any hope of chance of survival. When someone is in a tough place, they usually think of one thing that would give them hope. Sometimes that’s a parent, sibling, friend, or something they love. In Ralph’s case, he looks to the fire signal as a sign of hope for survival.I think when the fire went out, so did the hope.
    2)“A thin wail out of the darkness chilled them and set them grabbing for each other.” I think this is the perfect example of how fear is growing fast on the island. I noticed that as the book goes on, the beast gets more and more relevant. I predict that at the end of the book, the beast will have completely taken over and taken control of all of the children. I wonder if the littluns still think the beast is real or if they understand that it’s just their fear and imagination. Could the children get rid of the beast if they understand what it’s doing to them? Or will they be taken over?
    3)The most power and control are coming from Jack and Ralph. Since they are both the older ones, they have two completely different ideas of how order should be kept on the island. Their discussions are becoming more and more heated and vigorous as the story goes on, it won’t be long before chaos breaks loose. These two leaders are both causing sides to be created. The ones that want to be saved and the ones that want to survive for as long as they can on the island. I think that the leading problem is causing fear in the children because of Ralph and Jack’s arguments.
    4)How will the island turn to chaos? Will the conch shell disappear?

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    1. In response to your first question I don't think the island itself will turn into chaos but rather the kids on island. They have slowly fallen from society and I believe that they are really trying to figure out what to do about that. The order and civilization will slowly deteriorate.
      What can the boys do to avoid this?

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    2. I agree with you Gabi, and really I think the only thing they can do to avoid this from happening to establish rules and follow through with them. They started off really good at this but have slowly started to become savage. But I think there is redemption for them. They have not totally lost all goodness in them, and by remembering who they are and where they came from, it can help keep themselves in line and not let the entire island turn to chaos.

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    3. I think the island will turn into chaos by people not listening to the kids they should be listening to and by disorder. When these kids are listening to jack they aren't focused on the things they should be focused on. And there is a lot of conflict between jack and Ralph.

      Do people want leaders that seem strong rather than intelligent leaders?

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    4. I honestly don't think the conch will dissapear, but in chapter 5 on page 78,
      “Exposure to the air had bleached the yellow and pink to near-white, and transparency.” We talked about how pink stands for innocence and so this conch stands for innocence, respect, and authority. This quote is saying that the conch is slowly changing from innocent pink to a gross yellow color. I believe the conch will crumble much like the children's innocence.
      How does innocence fade?

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  8. 1. “The rules!” shouted Ralph. “You’re breaking the rules!”
    “Who cares?”
    Ralph summoned his wits.
    “Because rules are the only thing we’ve got!” But Jack was shouting against them.
    “Bullocks to the rules! We’re strong--we hunt! If there’s a beast, we’ll hunt it down! We’ll close in and beat and beat and beat--! (pg. 94)”
    I think this quote is the most important in chapter 5 to reveal the overall theme of the chapter. This is because I think this quote could be a turning point for many of the characters in the book. This is the first real sign of savagery that we have seen so far. Previously in the book, there has just been little glimpse of people becoming more mad and most savage, but this is definitely a clear sign of it. Jack is beginning to be rebellious against the rules and become hunt-crazy, now that he has killed a pig. I think that quote is also showing two different sides developing, and is showing a great contrast between the two. There is Jack's Side, the side that wants to kill, wants power, and wants freedom; the side that is turning into a beast. Then there is Ralph’s side, the rule-following, protective, and logical side, determined to get off the island. Having two sides so great in contrast will definitely cause conflict, and I have a feeling that blood will be shed from both sides, and like all wars, there will be a “winner” but really, both sides will lose.
    “ Ralph walked in the rear, thankful to have escaped responsibility for a time.” (pg.103)
    This quote is one of the most important quotes in chapter 6. This quote is showing how Ralph excitement of being chief has started to turn into a burden. The pressure and stress of being chief is starting to come on, and I’m sure we will see it further in future chapters. However, Ralph knows that he can not give up his job as chief because that would result in Jack being chief and is Jack was chief they would never be rescued. Also, he knows that Jack might hurt Piggy is Jack was chief, so Ralph must stay in that authority in order to protect Piggy. This quote really makes me question if Ralph really wanted to be the chief in the first place. Yes he was the one to blow the conch and assemble the assembly, but did he really want that responsibility?

    2. Fear plays a huge role in these two chapters. They fear the beast obviously, as well as the thought of never being rescued, however fear itself is playing a role much deeper than that. I believe that fear might actually be bringing the boys closer and making them more responsible people. In chapter 6, on page 101, Ralph says “Someone’s got to look after them.” (referring to the littluns)
    “Nobody has so far.” (This is jack speaking)
    “There was no need! Now there is. Piggy’ll look after them.”
    Now that fear has come into play, I feel that more responsibility is among the older ones. They are now looking out for the younger ones more because of the fear that there is something there that could possibly hurt them. Fear has also brought the boys closer together. When the beast of the air first arrived, the twins relied on each other like their lives depended on it, because they thought they did. Also, when Ralph went to go look for the beast, Jack wouldn’t let him go alone, also for the fear that something might harm them.

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    1. On page 93 and 94, Ralph discusses that he wants to give up his position ("'Fat lot of good we are,' said Ralph. 'Three blind mice. I'll give up." pg 93). You state that he know he can't because he has to protect Piggy and he want to get off the island. I believe you are wrong about Ralph's view on Piggy or even the view of being saved. He could care less about Piggy. What truly gets him to step up again is the idea of adults an grownup-ness ("'If only they could get a message tou us,' cried Ralph. 'If only they could send us something grownup . . . a sign or something.'" pg 94). Even with that idea, Ralph fails to see how the idea of grownups could help if nothing can be done about it.

      Can we expect things to get done if the easiest route is always taken?

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  9. 3. Roles regarding power and control are beginning to shift in these chapters. In chapter 6, Ralph feels that it is his duty as chief to go look for the beast. However, Jack comes along and tells him “Couldn’t let you do it alone.” (pg. 106) Knowing Jack, it is very likely that Jack came along for the credit and attention rather than the for the well-being of Ralph. This is a sign of roles beginning to shift. Jack is starting to take over and being the one to hunt, the one to command others, and the one to argue with the rules of Ralph. Also, as we see earlier in both chapter 5 and 6, Ralph is starting to doubt himself as the chief. He is happy when he gets a break from controlling everyone, and is starting to realize that he is not as smart and Piggy, and not as strong as Jack. This is causing him to think that he should not be the one in charge.

    4. Interpretive: Why is Ralph not as confident in himself as everyone else is of him?
    Critical: Why does having other people around that can do things better than yourself cause people to doubt their abilities?

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    1. I don't think Ralph isn't as confident in himself like everyone else is because he is under tons of pressure from many kids on an island striving for food and survival. Everyone else is not under all the weight Ralph is set upon giving him less time and energy to put into the island, making him feel not as confident in himself anymore. I think people around that can do better then you and then make them doubt their abilities is because they feel sympathy and sorrow in someone they know; you. People will feel bad about themselves when compared with you because they know that you have no capabilities they have in life and they want to share it with you. Those people are the fair and caring kind of people everyone needs in their life.

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    2. Question: Why is Ralph not as confident in himself as everyone else is of him?
      I like this question because it does seem as though Ralph is losing confidence in himself. I think that this confidence loss is just from the way that he has been getting treated by the other boys. He is trying to help everyone out by pointing out the things that could be better, but the others sideline him for it. This must be a huge confidence diminisher because he is just trying to do his best.

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  11. "Then people started getting frightened."(78) This is critical because people are not listening to Ralph and people are seeing that he isn't the wisest one of the bunch and this concerns Piggy and Jack. There scared because there surrounded onto an island and Ralph is persuading that he can fix this mess and he can lead to someone finding them. Ralph is just telling the people what he wants to hear for example: "Daddy taught me. He’s a commander in the Navy. When he get’s leave he’ll come and rescue us...” (13).

    I think the fear of being alone really affects the boys especially since there very young and aren't very cultured with anything else in there nature. For example on page

    During chapter six Ralph misjudges his authority while walking on the beach. (78) People see him for why he didn’t believe in himself.

    4) I:Does being where you are shape where you are?
    C:How does being a stern leader enforce rules better?

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    1. Ralph has changed a lot from the beginning of the book, so I think your quote from page 13 is no longer relevant to what Ralph really is. Being deserted on an island can change anyone. I think Ralph really has stepped up his game and has become far more mature and much more of a leader. I dont think he is necessarily scared of the island, I think he is just more concerned about the fact that they won't get home if people can't find them.

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    2. Question: How does being a stern leader enforce rules better?
      Being a leader is all about personality. You get people to follow your rules by respect. Some people get respect from being stern and strict while others get it by a lighter personality.

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  12. 1. From chapter 5 on page 51 it says, “‘What are we? Humans? Or animals? Or savages?” What’s grownups going to think? Going off-hunting pigs-letting the fires out- and now!”’ I think this is the most important quote because Piggy is telling the boys that they are no longer human. They have lost their sense of civilization and have become savages. That is the theme of this book. Being stuck on an island where boys have to sense of civilization and so they turn into savages instead. From chapter 6, page 102, “‘Don’t you all want to be rescued?” Alone these few words say a lot. Ralph has repeatedly asked the boys this, but what I have noticed is that each time they never give him a real answer. They never say “yes”. They don't say anything at all. Of course they want to be rescued, but I think there is a little chunk of them that wants to stay and be independent on the island. The savage in them is probably this little chunk.

    2. Fear has these boys making up things that they don’t actually see, or seeing something a different way and not how it’s actually is. They are simply creating evil from within their hearts and seeing it in a form that it actually is not there. “Simon, walking in front of Ralph, felt a flicker of incredulity—a beast with claws that scratched, that sat on a mountain-top, that left no tracks and yet was not fast enough to catch Samneric. However Simon thought of the beast, there rose before his inward sight the picture of a human at once heroic and sick.” (103). Simon realised this before anyone else. Jack has embraced the evil, simon has recognized it, and the others fear it that is why they have made of this beast. They made it because there was fear and evil in their minds and hearts.

    3. “‘I’m chief. We’ve got to make certain. Can’t you see the mountain? There’s no signal showing. There may be a ship out there. Are you all of your rockers?” Mutinously, the boys fell silent or muttering. Jack led the way down the rock and across the bridge.” (108). The boys have fallen way to Jack’s leadership. They are no longer obeying Ralph. I believe that they have gotten tired of his rules and want to enjoy the island by following Jack, the fun adventurous, dangerous guy that has no worries except hunting. It even says in this quote that they mutinously muttered or fell silent. That says to me that they have gotten sick of what he says and want him to be taken over

    4. Why does Jack ignore the rules? What happens when order is brought down? Does chaos break out?.

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    1. I have to agree with you that some of them want to be independent on the island, but I also think that they fear of being alone, so they tolerate one another and stick together.

      Great interpretation of these boys making up things that they see about the so called beast. I think this is a coping mechanism for all the boys because they are scared of other things. Perhaps being alone, starving, dying etc

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  13. 1. Page 87 - “For now the littluns were no longer silent. They were reminded of their personal sorrows; and perhaps felt themselves to share in a sorrow that was universal.”


    The idea of the beast becomes more real with the littluns and Jack and the hungers manipulate the boys into believing the beast exists for their own advantage. He knows that it probably does not exist, but in this quote the little boys think about their personal sorrows and cede more willingly to Jack and overlook the fact that Jack is not “looking out” for the group. Jack also gets to boys to act in a savage way like beasts would. This quote has to deal with leadership and the roles each of the boys play.

    Page 103 – “Simon, walking in front of Ralph, felt a flicker of incredulity—a beast with claws that scratched, that sat on a mountain-top, that left no tracks and yet was not fast enough to catch Samneric. However Simon thought of the beast, there rose before his inward sight the picture of a human, at once heroic and sick."
    This has to deal with the overall theme of the book and fear. Simon may not be as smart as Piggy, but he’s a smart guy and knows that the best is unbelievable, but it doesn't mean he isn't afraid. He knows the situation is heading in the wrong way and fast.
    2. This so called beast is actually making the littluns scared, but I think for Ralph, Simon and Piggy – Maybe there an underlying issue – the beast is just a metaphor for something else he is afraid of – like starving or never being rescued. At this point he is coming into realization perhaps that these factors may happen sooner and this “beast” that he knows does not exists is really him being afraid of those two issues. Page 89 – “Maybe there is a beast…What I mean is… maybe it's only us.” Perfect example of fear that they are going to be stranded forever.
    3. While the kids are agreeing to go look for the beast, Ralph isn’t necessarily agreeing, but the chief inside him, which is a power thing wants to. He’s a good example of how power can make anyone feel better. When someone is a leader, you realize that people are depending on you and it is a positive force. Being responsible and having the power changes people. Page 104 – “Something deep in Ralph spoke for him. I’m chief. I’ll go. Don’t argue”
    4. Interpretive: What will need to happen before fear takes over the entire group?
    Critical: How does being a leader change a person?

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    1. Being a leader changes a person in a lot of ways because the person who becomes a leader tends to get too much power and too much influence on others and start to not know what to do so that person starts almost taking their power as an advantage and doing things they usually wouldn't usually do.

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    2. I really like your thinking on the thought that maybe the beast is just an underlying issue. I never thought of it that way it is very interesting. To answer your critical question, I think that being a leader drastically changes people, and usually for the worst. When people become leaders, this power that they now have usually gets to their and they use that power to dominate ones weaker than themselves. People often get greedy with power, and once that happens corruption will soon follow.

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  14. 1)“Things are breaking up. I don’t understand why. We began well; we were happy.” - This quote shows how the group is breaking up a little bit, they have their own ideas on how they need to survive. Jack thinks they need to hunt and have food where as Ralph thinks they need a fire to be rescued.
    “We don’t need the conch any more.” - Why do some think they don’t need the conch any more? Do they feel like they need more power and the conch is stopping them from getting it? I think they want to get rid of the conch because they feel their ideas are not being heard.
    2)Fear, such as the beastie, is making them become less civilized. I also think the fear is created by themselves because they almost want to believe these things are true. They want to find out if the “beastie” is true. “We’ll have to go back and climb the mountain. That’s where they saw the beast.”
    3)power is making characters such as Jack make them hunt when they don’t even need to at the moment. Power also makes characters override their own rules concerning the conch.

    4)Why do the littluns not get in fights or arguments as often? Do they still have some innocence about them?
    As we get older do we find it easier to get into arguments or fights?

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    1. I never thought of fear as making them less civilized! Definitely see why they all want to see if the beast is real. I don't think the littluns argue as often because they have leaders essentially. They have innocence in them still so that is why they abide by the leaders.

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  15. 1. "What I mean is... maybe its only us."pg.89 This quote shows how Simon knows that they are the beasts among each other and how there is still some sense in at least one of them. "We want smoke. And you go wasting your time. You roll rocks." pg.108 This quote is important because it shows how Ralph wants to get saved really badly and the other kids don't understand or just don't want to get saved.

    2.Fear plays a role by making the kids rowdy and almost uncontrollable. Between them being very on edge to where they can mistake a para-trooper for a "beast" and them all getting excited and go around running and screaming, fear plays a big role. "He gave a wild whoop and leapt down to the pale sand. At once the platform was full of noise and excitement, scramblers, screams and laughter." It is almost as though they are getting more chaotic because of fear.
    3.The power that was once held in Ralph has started to shift to Jack, and it is creating chaos. "Because the rules are the only thing we've got!' But Jack was shouting against him. 'Bollocks to the rules! We're strong-we hunt!" Promptly after that quoted the boys get very excited and rowdy and follow Jack.
    4. How come Simon isn't more outgoing and speak up more if he is the wisest one there?

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    1. I think that Simon has not been more vocal because that is just his his personality type, he is insightful but he also is an observer and it is hard to be both he has time to analyze the situation when he sits back and watched but at the same time his points may be missed or only reared by very few people. Do you think he would be as insightful if he spoke up more?

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  16. 1. I think the main themes being shown is savagery and fear. One of the quotes that brought me to believe these are when Simon says "What I mean is... maybe it's only us." on page 89. This shows that they have become what they haven't want to become and that is savage. They are scared of each other because they afraid that they might hurt each other. Piggy says on page 93 "I'm scared of him,"..."thats why I know him. If you're scared of someone you hate him but you can't stop thinking about him. You kid yourself he's all right really, an' you can't breath. I tell you what. He hates you too, Ralph-" This shows that Jack fears Ralph and Piggy so is willing to go and hurt him which makes them savage because they are willing to hurt each other just to make each other weak.
    2. Everyone is fearful of something whether it is the beastie, the fear of being hurt by each other, or the fear of not being rescued and being stuck there until they died. I think that the last fear plays a major role in the last two chapters. On page 92 Piggy says "If Jack was chief he'd have all hunting and no fire. We'd be here till we died." this shows that they fear not being rescued but it's also the one thing that is going to help them stay alive because it's going to help them stay motivated to being rescued.
    3. Power is changing a lot and the leadership is too. Ralph has given up on trying to be chief because no one will listen to his rules or what he has to say. All of the littluns only really listen to Jack because he's fun and doesn't care about the rules. All Jack does is what he wants to do and not what he needs to do. On page 93 Piggy says "If Jack was chief he'd have all hunting and no fire. We'd be here till we died." This shows that Jack is not meant to be chief and would only focus on what he wants and not what everyone needs. It is creating a lot of fear that something bad would happen if Ralph wasn't the chief.
    4.Why would Ralph not want to be chief?
    Why would someone not want to have power?

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    1. Question 4: Why would Ralph not want to have power?
      Why would someone not want to have a power?
      Ralph seems to not want the power because he is trying to be the smart leader that they need but the rest of the boys do not like the rules and things that come from that. This makes the boys retaliate more and egg-on Ralph. If they were to support Ralph and his rules, then he probably would not mind to be chief. I think in anything I the normal world this occurs the same way; if someone is the leader of a group and the followers do not like the person, then they will not want the stress and demote themselves.

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    2. I agree with Kiah but I think it's also that he doesn't want to have to deal with the responsibility of leading a group of boys to survive on an island while they wait for help to arrive. I think it would also be easier for Ralph if the boys were willing to help instead of go of exploring and swimming so that he was not left to do all the work. Do you think that Ralph and Piggy would stick together if Ralph stepped down as leader?

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  17. 1) Chapter 5

    “... so that he noticed-in this new mood of comprehension- how the folds were stiff like...” page 76

    This quote leads on to show how Ralph, and possibly the other boys, are starting to realize that they do not have the “good life”. The island is not paradise that you can just play on and act like a kid. They are losing that beginning excitement of the island and are losing some of the ties they had to the previous life like there clothes. They have not made much improvement since they landed and I think that the boys are starting to realize that too. I think this will change Ralphs perspective and make them work harder.


    Chapter 6

    “The figure fell and crumpled among the blue flowers of the mountain-side, but now there was a gentle breeze at this height too and...” page 95

    This section of the book goes to show the things that are going on beyond the island. The is a war that is brutal and you can tell this by the figure that has been sent down. It also shows how there is not only conflict on this island but there is conflict in a bigger picture that is also in all of the boys lives. I think fear will come from the boys when they find out what it is because it will remind them of what is going on at home and will bring up a conflict about the twins not following directions.



    2) “What I mean is...maybe it’s only us.” page 89

    In this Golding shows that there is a possibility that the beast is just the fear of the unknown and that the kids are beginning to realize it. The boys fear that they have no safety and would not know what to do if there was truly something dangerous out on the island. They know that they are only children that have only thought about what they themselves want in the past and do not know how to take care of themselves. They fear that they are alone and do not know what to do and just don’t have that piece of security or protection that you need to do anything.


    3) “All this I meant to say. Now I’ve said it. You voted me for chief. Now you do what I say.” Page 81

    Power and control are shifting in these chapters because Ralph is now truly taking on the leader role and making rules and jobs that will create order. Yet, it is creating a sort of anger between the boys because they chose Ralph for leadership because he was charismatic and let the kids just have fun and do whatever they wanted. Now they are angry at him because he is making rules that they will have to follow. Jack is taking this anger and using it for his own status by doing the things that the boys like hunting and he does not have rules.


    4) Why do most of the kids on the island start to go against Ralph when he starts to put real rules down?

    How does our commitment to someone or something change when order is put down and fun has been taken?

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    1. I think that they really start to go against him because they have experienced fun and carefree life on the island so far but now Ralph is tired of doing everything himself and wants to get everyone working and because they feel that they can still have their fun with Jack they are pulled toward him as a leader. Do you think that Ralph would have a place if Jack took over as chief?

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  18. 1."The rules are all we got." I find this quote very interesting. For it's appeal of the vulnerability to the boys, but most of all Ralph. When he says this I feel that a little bit of him is being the others to stay sane. I feel he fears that the rest would follow in Jack's footsteps. “What I mean is . . . maybe it’s only us.” This is an amazing and very significant. When Simon brings this to attention we as readers can vouch that we see change in the boys. It makes you wonder what action will prove Simon's theory.
    Fear is a key component in the story. There would be no beastie. There would be no clashing of authority. In chapter 6 when the twins see the man and mistake him for the beastie, it shows what fear can make us see. Also believe, in the sense that the littleuns are afraid of it. Fear can also be used in manipulation here. The younger boys want someone to make them feel safe so by making them feel that you gain trust, power, and control. Who would have the better chances of using this to the best of their ability?
    During these chapters you can see the power shift between the boys. When Ralph says "The rules are all we've got." Again this shows the deteriorating of the civilazation they have. The boys are getting minds of their own and starting to make decisions for themselves. This is showing that the transition into savage like ways are coming upon us. These boys will break and it will take one thing to break them. What will it be?
    What will be the one action that will cause chaos among the boys? Does power of hunger drive us to do horrible things?

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  19. Chapter 5. In chapter 5 one of the more important quotes in revealing and overall message was that maybe there wasn’t a beast and it was only them. “What I mean is...maybe its only us” p.89. This could be foreshadowing into what may happen to the boys because right now it seems like they are becoming their own worst enemy and Simon is the only one able to see that so maybe that will cause him to further himself from the group.
    Chapter 6. In chapter 6 on page 107 Ralph says “Thats all we’ve got” and I think that he worries about the fire and their lack of caring about it. Ralph really wants to get rescued and thinks that their best chance of having that happen is by smoke from their fire so with everyone trying to stop and build a fort or going hunting instead I think that it makes it hard for Ralph to keep leading them.
    In these chapters fear is play a role that no one wants around. It began with the little uns thinking that noises they heard were beasts and now it has been suggested that they themselves are the beastie. p.89 “What I mean is...maybe its only us” Some of them are probably beginning to realize how bad the situation that they are in is and will have to adapt accordingly, but they are also scared of it because they aren't taught how to survive in prep school and haven’t had any real training for what could be the most dangerous situation they are ever faced with and they have to worry about the people they are trapped with not the island they are trapped on.
    The power and control is switching from Ralph to Jack in these chapters and it’s causing tension that was already there to build upon itself. on page 91 Jack says to Ralph “And you shut up! Who are you, anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can’t hunt, you can’t sing.” This causes Ralph to have doubt in himself as to how good of a leader he is and this scares Piggy because he sees Ralph as the only thing protecting him from Jack.
    a. Are the older boys who understand more afraid of what Simon has said about the beast being them so that they would really rather have it be a monster then themselves?
    b. When a person fears themselves or what they have become will they try to blame it on someone or something else?

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  20. 1) “What I mean is… Maybe it’s just us” (Pg. 89) I believed this was a very powerful and seemingly small, yet very revealing message from the author. Throughout the book the beast has seemed to be a figment of their imagination symbolically representing either fear or inherent evil of man and savagery that comes with loss of level on the hierarchy of needs. This is also foreshadowing that they are to gain/be overwhelmed by the metaphorical beast that has been lurking inside them for so long. It is clear they became less organized in the following chapter (showing they're becoming more uncivil) and many characters are being driven more and more into a state of savagery and aggression as the book progresses. It also showed some powerful and unique thinking to characterize Simon. “‘We want smoke. And you go wasting your time. You roll rocks.’ Roger shouted ‘we’ve got plenty of time!’ Ralph shook his head. ‘We’ll go to the mountain.’ The clamor broke out. Some wanted to roll more rocks. The sun was bright and danger had faded with the darkness. ‘Jack. The beast might be on the other side. You can lead again.’” (Pg. 108) This quote reflected the overall ideas established from this section of the passage which showed new order and the unwillingness of the boys to comply with Raplh, who had become a major voice of civil foundation. The boys had become disorderly and unwilling to bend their desires, time, and efforts to Ralph's ideas of helping them get off the island and getting work done. They no longer seemed to desire formal, civil control and working in their community. Instead much of the group began straying towards a clear ambition of Jack leading instead, who has become a voice of looseness, pride, and barbarism. This shows the group is breaking apart even greater than before into two sides between Ralph and Jack based on what their new environment has mended their individual characters into.

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  21. 2) Fear is playing a great role in the chapters especially recently and has driven and influenced the boys in many great ways. Fear was a great component in the beginning around the second chapter and has sprung up again greatly especially in the recent two. It is driving the boys into imagining things, gaining ambition towards destroying this fear, and symbolism. It makes the boys less controllable and unwhole. It seems to vigorously fuel the imaginations of the boys, naturally. '"we ran as fast as we could---’ ‘bashed into things---’ ‘The beast followed us---’ ‘I saw it sinking behind trees---’ ‘Nearly touched me---’” (Pg. 100) Those claims of Samneric are exaggerated because the beast in that case was physically shown to be a dead WWII pilot in a parachute who was lifeless. The fear they have is also a prevailing device that shows what they fear is themselves. Not only because it is manifested naturally by their own minds, but because of the fact that what the uncivil beings some especially are becoming from their conditions is exactly what they fear from the beast in some ways. As well as a prevailing pattern on who believes what based on how close to becoming the thing they fear and other factors such as maturity.

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  22. 3) Power and control shift are dragging them further and further away from civilness and foundation of rules and order as the book progresses. Two sides are clearly emerging and throughout most of the group Ralph is losing his dominance do to the noncompliance and desire of less expectations and boundaries imposed by the others. Jack is starting to rise as the leader because he is much looser on things and has most of the group's agreeance on his ideas and less harsh policies. "The old exasperation saved him and gave him the energy to attack. 'Hasn’t anyone got any sense? We’ve got to relight that fire. You never thought of that, Jack, did you? Or don’t any of you want to be rescued?'
    Yes, they wanted to be rescued, there was no doubt about that; and
    with a violent swing to Ralph’s side, the crisis passed. Piggy let out his
    breath with a gasp, reached for it again and failed." I thought this quote was very powerful in showing the dilemna most of the boys were having at this point of choosing between the voice of realism and what is logical or the voice of optimism and what they desire. It also showed Piggy's fear knowing he will be fully taken advantage of if Jack comes into power and will no longer to sustain sufficient control from Ralph if he falls from his position.

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  23. 4) Interpretive: Will Jack take over as leader or at least some parts of the group because so many are likewise and preferring of his uncivilized and loosely organized ways or will the group divide among the two prevailing sides?
    Critical: In times of crisis or fear will most people tend to side with optimistic relief over realist perspective?

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  24. 1. “What I'm saying is… maybe it's only us.” (83) I feel like this is saying Ralph, Simon, and Piggy are realizing that they are becoming uncivilized and pure savages. This quote is very important to the story and especially the chapter because it is showing that some of the boys are realizing that they could die or kill each other. I'm wondering if Simon has some way of predicting what will happen later on because he is saying that the beast might be us. But I'm curious what sparked those thoughts in his head.
    "The rules are all we got." This quote is interesting because it is saying that some of the boys think that the rules are their way to survive and get off the island. The rules also provide some insurance to everyone on the island because it is kind of like a safety net that protects the people on the island.
    2. Everyone is fearful of something for the boys on the island it was the fear of the beast and of themselves. They feared themselves because it showed them becoming uncivilized and a savage. Another fear that some of the boys had was the leadership of the island. On page 92 Piggy says "If Jack was chief he'd have all hunting and no fire. We'd be here till we died." This quote is showing that Jack would only be focused on the good for himself not for everyone else.
    3. There is a change in power because not many people are wanting to follow and listen to Ralph even though his morals are strong ones. He is also concerned about getting of the island and he doesn’t want to spend his whole life living on it. This is shown on page 102, “‘Don’t you all want to be rescued?” Piggy is worried about Ralph leaving because he thinks that Jack hates him and wants him dead. Piggy is worried about Ralph not being there and protecting him.
    4. Interpret- Why does Ralph want to step down from leadership?
    Critical- Do people step down from high roles because of the pressure put on them?

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